Mari or Liquid (she/they/them) as they are known in the BDSM community, served as the chapter’s VP. They also taught classes while lending their years of experience and community service by shining a light on the chapter to the greater BDSM/ Fetish/Leather community.

In their “vanilla life,” kink activist Liquid is a social worker who has dedicated their career to the field of aging. While social work might not have an obvious connection to the kink world, the most rewarding part of both, is having the ability to amplify voices while providing education, resources, and tools that empower those in marginalized communities at various stages of their lives.” In their social work, Liquid has helped some of society’s most vulnerable, including older adults and those living with HIV/AIDS.

Instagram: @liquidandleather

[00:00:08] Wicked Wren Greetings everyone, and welcome to the Shibari Study Podcast. I'm your host, Wicked Wren. Shibari Study is an online learning resource offering video tutorials for beginners through advanced practitioners. Whether you're brand new to the world of Shibari and needing to learn the basics, or a seasoned rigger or rope bottom seeking inspiration to push your practice to new places, there's something for you at shibaristudy.com. Today I have on Liquid. Liquid uses she/they pronouns. Liquid is the co-founder and CPO of BLX Alternative and the international Miss Leather of 2023. How are you Liquid?

[00:00:49] Master Liquid Rulz I am well, thank you for having me.

[00:00:53] Wicked Wren Yeah, you're just getting over a little cold. Are you feeling better and stuff?

[00:00:57] Master Liquid Rulz Much better. That cold was... Yeah. It was fun to have a cold in the summer.

[00:01:02] Wicked Wren My least favorite colds. Because there's no, like, soup or anything. At least when it's a winter and you guys have soup, it makes you warm, but...

[00:01:10] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah, especially in New York, it's been heat wave city over here, so...

[00:01:13] Wicked Wren Oh, my God.

[00:01:15] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah.

[00:01:16] Wicked Wren You told me a story at Folsom one time, about how you took some edibles that your kids gave you, and you had this really wild experience. Can you tell us that story?

[00:01:27] Master Liquid Rulz Sure. So usually I take my own edibles that I get when I go out to Cali. They're the low dose milligrams, the micro dose is, what, ten milligrams each? And so I was out of edibles, and my youngest daughter is – who is an adult – she said, would you like to try one of mine? And I just looked at her. I was like, Hmm... I don't know, if they're homemade, I don't want them. She's like, No, no, no, I got them from the smoke shop. They're gummies. So I was like, okay. I was like, she's like, they're called California Honey. So I'm like, Oh, the name Californian is in it.

[00:02:01] Wicked Wren Can't be that bad!

[00:02:03] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah! It came from a dispensary. It's packaged like my regular ones. So, I took one, and, I, she went into her room and I think like 30 or 40 minutes later, she comes into my room. I am laughing hysterically at the television. It is a commercial. I don't know what the commercial is, but it is hilarious. Somewhere in between the giggles, I make my way to the kitchen, I grab the giant bag of Doritos and I grab Reese's peanut butter cups.

[00:02:37] Wicked Wren Oh, my god.

[00:02:39] Master Liquid Rulz And then I woke up in the next morning because I don't know what happened in between all of that. I woke up the next morning and I'm cuddling a bag of Doritos.

[00:02:45] Wicked Wren Of course.

[00:02:47] Master Liquid Rulz And, I thought I (…) my bed. I was like, Oh my God, what is all of this? And I'm freaking out. And then I, like, touch my (…) and I there's foil and I look, I'm like, I rolled over on all of those peanut butter cups.

[00:03:01] Wicked Wren Oh, my God.

[00:03:02] Master Liquid Rulz Peanut butter chocolate everywhere. And so I asked my daughter, I was like, What was in those? How many milligrams was that? She was like, Oh, those are 100mg. I said, In the package? She goes, No, each.

[00:03:14] Wicked Wren Oh my God.

[00:03:17] Master Liquid Rulz So that was my lesson of never taking edibles for my children again.

[00:03:21] Wicked Wren Yes. So it begs the question. It's really cool that you can share that with your daughter. Are you two close?

[00:03:29] Master Liquid Rulz Yes, I'm close with my girls. They are really good kids, and I love them to death.

[00:03:34] Wicked Wren Do they know your leather world?

[00:03:37] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. They do. They actually make fun of me anytime something rope related or leather related comes in and they're like, Ugh, more stuff.

[00:03:47] Wicked Wren Yeah. Was there a moment of feeling nervous to tell them these things?

[00:03:54] Master Liquid Rulz I mean, they sort of figured it out on their own. Especially when they became of age. I converted one of the bedrooms into my closet, where all of my leather was, and then my whips were hanging on the wall and my floggers.

[00:04:09] Wicked Wren Kind of hard to keep it under wraps.

[00:04:11] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. And they were just like, I don't ask no questions. And then, Netflix shows came out and they were like, Oooooh. So that's what you do.

[00:04:22] Wicked Wren That's what mom does.

[00:04:24] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. I guess, some- something like that.

[00:04:27] Wicked Wren Yeah. You seem like a really, open/cool is the right word, but you're tattooed and all those kinds of things.

[00:04:34] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. I've always been open with my kids about that. I've always been open and very, like, hands on when it comes to having these conversations about (…) and safe (…) and all that. Especially when they became older teenagers into their adulthood, because I feel like a lot of parents don't talk to their children about the birds and the bees. So we had those conversations, and dealing with their older sisters who are now in their 30s, having those conversations, you know. And so when you have a bunch of queer kids running around the house, somebody has to have the conversation with them.

[00:05:08] Wicked Wren Yeah. Do you have any words for parents that are maybe scared to have these conversations with their kids, or they think that they need to hide this stuff?

[00:05:18] Master Liquid Rulz It's all about the deliverance. You know, children know more than we think they do. Especially because they're exposed to so much on television, on social media. Just have a really good open conversation. And you don't have to go into too much detail about what what you're doing, but have a conversation about it. You know, it makes them more comfortable coming to you for things.

[00:05:41] Wicked Wren It's awesome. You mentioned making one of your bedrooms your leather closet, and you're currently in it now. I can see behind you an incredible array of items.

[00:05:53] Master Liquid Rulz Yes, yes.

[00:05:54] Wicked Wren I imagine it didn't happen overnight. There's a path there. How did you find the leather community? How do you find (…) and (…)?

[00:06:02] Master Liquid Rulz So back in the 90s, I hung out with gay men. That, that's all I hung out with was gay man. And of course, the scene isn't like how it is now. Everything was like, very much underground. And I went out one night. They was like, Oh, we're going to go to a club. And I'm like, Well, what club are we going to? And they were like, We're going to go to the Vault. And the Vault was an (…) club. And that was a club – you couldn't just walk up to the club and be like, I'm coming in, you know? It was a place where you had to know somebody that knows somebody that knows somebody in order to even enter the space. And from the moment that I walked in, my eyes were just like huge. To see everything that was going on from (…) to, you know, to (…) spanking and, you know, it was an (…) club. And it was the the greatest experience I ever had.

[00:07:00] Wicked Wren And that I was the first time you saw that.

[00:07:03] Master Liquid Rulz That was the first time I saw that in a public space that wasn't on television, that wasn't in someone's home, that it was actually in the nightlife. So I knew from that moment on. I'm like, this is what I want to do. And so, like almost every weekend I was in that club or another club called Hellfire, and it was very grungy and grimy and raunchy. And if you seen American Horror Story, New York City, it was similar to, to that scene. So, so it was great.

[00:07:35] Wicked Wren What an amazing thing to experience.

[00:07:38] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. And I didn't jump right into leather, you know? I started doing, like, (…) work, because I was already a (…). I was dancing to pay my way through school, but it was a buildup. I met other people in leather, and then I wanted to learn more about it. And that's how I began exploring.

[00:07:58] Wicked Wren At this time, you were out as queer and you had queer community and things?

[00:08:03] Master Liquid Rulz Yes.

[00:08:04] Wicked Wren You said that the leather community was different than the (…) community and the (…) community. How was it different? In what ways?

[00:08:15] Master Liquid Rulz In a lot of ways. So like, leather, the history of leather dates back to the 1940s, you know, with gay men, leather bars, very motorcycle club style things. In New York, I think they opened up their first motorcycle club in like 1958. Around there. But leather is more of a culture, of a lifestyle, of an attitude, you know? People just assumed... Yes, a lot of people that are leather, wear leather, but you don't have to be in leather to be leather, if that makes sense, you know? It's something that you carry within you. And there's a lot of culture that comes with it, there's a lot of history. There's a lot of tradition that that goes with it. It's not just about the dressing up in leather.

[00:09:04] Wicked Wren Yeah. What was the first leather piece that you got?

[00:09:08] Master Liquid Rulz The first leather piece that I got was – that was gifted to me. It is actually one of my covers up there, that was gifted. The first leather piece I bought was a black leather dress, and I still have it.

[00:09:25] Wicked Wren That's amazing.

[00:09:26] Master Liquid Rulz I still have it to this day, and it is about 20 years old now.

[00:09:34] Wicked Wren Wow. And it's like, it's amazing that garments hold up that long. They're just like made well. They last forever.

[00:09:42] Master Liquid Rulz They really are. And, you know, it's, like you said earlier about, you know, this didn't happen overnight. Leather is expensive. So... Getting leather over the years, I had to be crafty about, you know, how I did things. I connect with like, certain people because there weren't many stores, especially in New York, that made leather for women.

[00:10:06] Wicked Wren That was my next question.

[00:10:08] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. It's hard. It's still hard now. This is very much hard.

[00:10:12] Wicked Wren Yes. You said that the leather community was comprised of gay men, mainly. Were you one of the only women?

[00:10:20] Master Liquid Rulz Then in my group that was open about it. And then I met other women along the way through the connections of the gay men.

[00:10:30] Wicked Wren And I'm sorry for this clarification, but when you say open about it, do you mean that you were open about being a part of the leather scene, or they were open to having a woman in their group? Which way?

[00:10:41] Master Liquid Rulz Oh, me being open about being in the leather scene.

[00:10:44] Wicked Wren I understand.

[00:10:46] Master Liquid Rulz There wasn't many people, especially there weren't many black and brown women. A lot were still underground, even black and brown men. But yeah, I was one of few. There weren't many people that looked like me.

[00:10:58] Wicked Wren When you were a (…), did you incorporate leather into that a lot?

[00:11:03] Master Liquid Rulz Yes. That's how I started getting my, my leather. Because of the money that I was making at the time...

[00:11:09] Wicked Wren That makes sense.

[00:11:09] Master Liquid Rulz ...And that was part of my tribute for my clients to bring me something leather. So whether it was boots or heels, you know, or corsets, which this whole row is all corsets.

[00:11:19] Wicked Wren I know. I'm so jealous.

[00:11:23] Master Liquid Rulz I'm obsessed. That, that, that is my (…), collecting corsets.

[00:11:26] Wicked Wren That was my question. What was your favorite thing? What do you think it is about corsets? Is it the feminizing aspect of it or the constricting or...?

[00:11:35] Master Liquid Rulz It's both that's – I love both about those. I love the fact that you can go in and... It, it gives you this, this curve. But you feel bound and constricted to it. And it's on you.

[00:11:53] Wicked Wren Yes.

[00:11:54] Master Liquid Rulz And it's such a great feeling. And then it's even better when you take it off.

[00:11:58] Wicked Wren Yes. It's like, it's like you worked for it a lot. I don't wear a lot of leather corsets, but PVC with latex and things like that, and it's amazing having it on. But the best thing is like when you take it off and you can eat and breathe and slouch and sit down.

[00:12:14] Master Liquid Rulz Absolutely. We used to joke about, like, breathing is not important as long as we look good.

[00:12:19] Wicked Wren Yeah, it's not important.

[00:12:20] Master Liquid Rulz Don't worry about eating. You can eat later. You can't fit anything into the corset. But it's actually really great. But I love latex, just, you know, as well. I have a bunch of latex.

[00:12:29] Wicked Wren Me too. It's great. I feel like the people that also like leather are also obsessed with latex. I mean, it's kind of like one and the same.

[00:12:36] Master Liquid Rulz Yes, yes, yes, yes. Latex is a little more sensitive to take care of, you know? Direct sunlight, all of those things storing it... So I have those tucked away.

[00:12:46] Wicked Wren I also wish that there was a way to wear latex in community more, I suppose? Because I really love latex, but it's difficult to do it at home alone. Obviously I can, but it just doesn't do the same thing when I'm just hanging out. If I go out or something, I could wear leather accessory or something and feel a part of that. But it's difficult to do that with latex.

[00:13:10] Master Liquid Rulz I think in the winter you can do it.

[00:13:11] Wicked Wren Yeah.

[00:13:13] Master Liquid Rulz Put on some latex pants.

[00:13:14] Wicked Wren Yeah, exactly. Just not summer. When you made the closet, was there kind of a point where you were like, All right, I think I need to do this. I think I earned this whole room dedicated to the thing.

[00:13:27] Master Liquid Rulz I started realizing, actually, during the pandemic, like the the brink of the pandemic, my, my clients were still sending me gifts, and sending me corsets, and sending me things. And I'm like, how can one accumulate this much stuff? And I haven't left the house in almost three years. I was like, I have no space and I have them like in little storage containers, but I didn't like the way that looked, especially when things started to open back up and I needed to go, I didn't want to sift through things. Like, I had leather formal in the closet, but my day to day leather was like tucked away. So I was like, okay, I don't have no kids home anymore. So I have three bedrooms. Let me figure something out. And so I was like, you know what? This is going to become my closet. It's my closet space where I go to record. I have my call in here as well.

[00:14:20] Wicked Wren Oh, amazing.

[00:14:22] Master Liquid Rulz I have my toy sword. So yeah, everything is, is in here.

[00:14:25] Wicked Wren You know, most people's parents just make their old rooms the workout room.

[00:14:31] Master Liquid Rulz Yep. Mine became a closet of all of my (…) stuff.

[00:14:35] Wicked Wren So I said in your intro that you're international Miss Leather 2023. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[00:14:43] Master Liquid Rulz Oh, that.... A lot went into it. I initially was supposed to run in 2020. Of course, the world shut down, so I couldn't. I joke about the the title, about the concepts in itself, about how this was the concept that I never wanted to run for because... I... There was a rumor started that I was running for the contest before I even...

[00:15:10] Wicked Wren Oh, my God.

[00:15:11] Master Liquid Rulz ...Planned on run – I never had any intention to. I was in the middle of running for another contest, and I went to an event and they were like, "Hey, Liquid, congratulations! I heard you were running for International Miss Leather! I was like, I am?

[00:15:22] Wicked Wren Like, when did that happen?

[00:15:24] Master Liquid Rulz That was in 2019.

[00:15:25] Wicked Wren Oh my God.

[00:15:27] Master Liquid Rulz And so everybody kept coming to me. And so I told my leather brother, I'm like... I'm running for International Miss Leather? He was like, Are you? I was like, I don't know, am I? People constantly keep asking me. So I had no clue. I finally got down to the bottom of it. They were... Someone was manifesting it in, in a meeting for the event, and said that I would run. And I thought about it. I said if I ever did, it would be based off set and setting. I had finished my second Masters, so I was like, maybe I could finagle this in. And I thought about it for about a month and I was like, you know what? Let me do it. And then the pandemic was like, pause. So...

[00:16:05] Wicked Wren Nooo, not doing that.

[00:16:06] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. And the first three months of actually – the process. I still had to go through the first three months March when the world shut down. That's when the contest was canceled. I was like, All right, now what? And everyone that was competing was like, I'm done. I'm not going to do this. This was so stressful. I'm not going to wait. I was like, Look, I didn't go through all this stress, get these gray hairs, buy all this stuff... I'm running. I'm like, If it happens next year, I'm running. So of course 21 didn't happen, 22 didn't happen. 23, I was the only one from my year who was supposed to run in 2020 that ran, and... It was a lot. Like there... It's not as simple as, I'm running for this contest, I just show up. It's not simple at all. You are, from the moment your application is accepted, you are being judged. You are being judged.

[00:16:58] Wicked Wren What's the criteria on... What is the criteria that they look at?

[00:17:04] Master Liquid Rulz So anyone who identifies, or appreciates or accept leather dike history, identifies as a leather woman or a leather dike can run for, or you can be trans, non-binary, run for this title. As long as you are okay with having the title of International Miss.

[00:17:28] Wicked Wren Got it.

[00:17:29] Master Liquid Rulz And you, you have to fulfill your duties for a year. So you're, you're in contract for a year, but it takes four months of preparing for this contest. You have tasks throughout four months that meet deadlines and meetings every weekend. It's nuts.

[00:17:45] Wicked Wren Wow. And what are the tasks? Like, what are the duties that you fulfill in that year?

[00:17:51] Master Liquid Rulz So, traveling, of course, to events. And... I am traveling to events. I am judging contests. I am teaching at contests. I am fundraising. I am just on.

[00:18:08] Wicked Wren How is it judging events? Do you enjoy that?

[00:18:12] Master Liquid Rulz I do and I don't. Because... You know, certain events, people... people, people's intention for running for contests are very different. And I see that there's a big difference with women that run for leather contests and men that run for leather contests. Men, it's like you would think the women be like, I'm showing up and I'm pretty. No. It's the men that actually do that. Like, I show up in a jock and I'm going to do it. But no, it's more of like, we have that mindset of teaching, presenting and fulfilling whatever our platform is, you know, for that year, because the goal is, is for you to, you know, promote whatever your platform is, whether it is education, whether it is, you know,... Just activism in any form. You're raising awareness in any way. That is what you're doing for that year at these events. And so some people don't take it as serious. They just want to show up.

[00:19:14] Master Liquid Rulz That makes sense.

[00:19:15] Master Liquid Rulz And it's a free pass to get into a party. So where a lot of us just go and you're always on the move. It's, it's hard.

[00:19:24] Wicked Wren You seem like someone that has their hands in everything. Like, in life.

[00:19:28] Master Liquid Rulz I do. I do! It's one, it's one of my toxic traits.

[00:19:33] Wicked Wren It's funny, when I was starting this podcast, everyone's like, Oh, you need Liquid on. You need Liquid on. Liquid's got to be on the podcast. Do you know Liquid? I should introduce you to Liquid. This is like, you seem like you do so much. I have a question. What is your Master's? And you said you finished it? Your second.

[00:19:47] Master Liquid Rulz Oh, my. My second Master's is in social work. My first one was in forensic science. I was supposed to be a medical examiner.

[00:19:53] Wicked Wren Oh my God, what happend?

[00:19:55] Master Liquid Rulz I decided to be noble and give back to my community. And my community never gave me back. And that was 18 years ago.

[00:20:00] Wicked Wren Wow. And... Wow. And your platform you ran on or that you're fulfilling right now is on education, correct?

[00:20:08] Master Liquid Rulz Yes. Education, especially education within black and brown communities, which is how BLX got started as well.

[00:20:15] Wicked Wren Yeah. I want to talk about that in a second. But before we get there, can you tell me about BLX Alternative?

[00:20:22] Master Liquid Rulz So yeah, so BLX, my leather siblings, SoRaven, and I started that after we left another organization that, that we were with. We wanted the organization that we were building to focus on education and providing education to black and brown communities, especially to erase stigma and shame that comes with (…), (…), leather lifestyle and any type of sexual wellness and health. And we birthed it during the pandemic because when the world was shut down, I didn't know what the hell to do. Like, I'm a person that, ... Like you said, I need to be in everything. So I started teaching online and I wasn't charging people for the events. People were asking for education, and they wanted education that was for black and brown folks. So I started doing like workshops, classes, groups. I was doing support groups during the pandemic, things like that. And it did so well that we decided that we were going to do BLX around us. So... And that's, that's the growth there. So we did that, and we also said we wanted to be different from other organizations because both of us being educators coming up in the last two decades, there were times where we never got paid. A lot of times where you don't get paid. So we were making a point of whoever we would have to present for us, or teach a class or a workshop, anything like that. We would make sure that they were paid. So that's what we did. And we applied for grants and things like that so that we can make sure that those people get paid.

[00:22:01] Wicked Wren It's amazing. You spoke about erasing stigma that comes along with being a part of the (…) and (…) worlds. I think that's something that most people want to do, and it's something I have no idea how to even start and how to approach. Do you have any thoughts on that as an educator? Like how do we start to erase some of those things?

[00:22:24] Master Liquid Rulz Having the hard conversations. I think people are so uncomfortable having tough conversations and having them openly and candidly that people get stuck in that, I don't want to offend. A I tell people all the time. Uncomfortability creates change.

[00:22:44] Wicked Wren Yes. Wow.

[00:22:45] Master Liquid Rulz You know, you have to make people uncomfortable sometimes to create change. So have these hard conversations. What is it about what we do that is so shameful? What is it about what we do that makes someone else uncomfortable? You know, start to break down and pick those things apart and have these real conversations. Because sometimes it can just be, you know, a lot of internalized things because the way that a person has grown up, whether it's religion or race or culture. So they're like, Oh, I don't want to bring shame. And I'm like, do you even talk to your family? No? So why are you worried about bringing shame to them? And you, you don't even, you know, so it's about letting things go. And... Yeah.

[00:23:30] Wicked Wren Yeah, it's kind of always something deeper with the person. I feel like it's rarely something malicious. It's just like fear of not wanting to make someone else uncomfortable or something. Then people don't say anything, and that just makes it worse and worse and worse.

[00:23:44] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah, I did like a group. It's called, Sis, are you all right? And it was open to black and brown women, trans, non-binary folks. And it was about having the conversations of the stereotypes of the Black woman, the promiscuous woman, the angry black woman, all of these things and break it down so that we can come together and have this bigger conversation. But I also invited white folks to the conversation because I wanted them to sit and listen. I also invited men to the conversation because I wanted them to sit and listen. They weren't talking, but they were listening to the voices of black women and black trans folks that are there experiencing these things on a day to day basis. So it was a really good conversation.

[00:24:28] Wicked Wren That's really cool that you invited people in to hear that. Growing up, there was never a dialog around race or sexuality or gender, anything, you know? Are you still doing that class?

[00:24:41] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah, we're actually going to bring it back in October.

[00:24:44] Wicked Wren Wow. And how would someone join that if they wanted to?

[00:24:49] Master Liquid Rulz I just – those, those are free. So I will just post it up and then you just sign up for the zoom. And that's that, that's really simple because it's ongoing dialogs and having community conversations.

[00:25:00] Wicked Wren It's amazing. So on that, you were talking about education and how (…) has become really popular in social media, especially during the pandemic, especially with TikTok. How have you seen that affect the community as a whole?

[00:25:19] Master Liquid Rulz There are some positive and some negatives to it. The positives, of course, are, you know, we are not the deviants that everyone thinks we are. You know, Pride this year was the first time, and I was marching during Pride in New York, was the first time that we were ever televised, like, nationally televised.

[00:25:40] Wicked Wren Wow.

[00:25:41] Master Liquid Rulz I was on the cover of a newspaper, with, with the eagle, you know, and you see a bunch of gay men and jocks and all of this, and and it was great. So those are good things that attributes to the community. The negative on that is that you have so many new people coming into the community that they skip the point of education. You know, they bypass education because what they see on Instagram, on TikTok, on FL, they believe that they can do it. You know, they believe that just taking, you know, watching YouTube videos of rope.

[00:26:18] Wicked Wren Yeah.

[00:26:19] Master Liquid Rulz You know, is, is a way to learn rope. And though that may be a good way of starting to educate yourself, you still need an actual body and need to understand all of the risks and everything that comes with it. And what happens is in situations like that, it leads to, you know, unsafe practices, people getting hurt, people not vetting properly, people not understanding, like the basic concept of consent, you know? And you have a bunch of unsafe people coming in who are causing harm and are not being held accountable for it. And when I mean like not the newer people coming in, you have people that have been around that have already been problematic, basically, you know, shark baiting, that's what we call them, the new ones coming in and they don't know because they don't have that information. So I push for education all the time, even when I do like my weekly live, it's just to talk about things we notice in the community, or just to bring the community in the conversation. What's on your minds, what's going on? What have you seen?

[00:27:22] Wicked Wren Yeah, it's really hard to get people in to the broader community in general, and it's difficult as everyone's entry point into (…) is really, really, really different.

[00:27:35] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah.

[00:27:36] Wicked Wren I would be curious to hear about how your consent practices or your consent negotiations have changed and evolved over time.

[00:27:46] Master Liquid Rulz So I see a lot of people still are stuck on some of the old ways of S.S.C. Safe, sane and consensual and although that's great, I don't like to use that terminology because I'm like... Nothing about what we do is safe.

[00:28:00] Wicked Wren It doesn't make any sense.

[00:28:03] Master Liquid Rulz Exactly.

[00:28:04] Wicked Wren It means nothing.

[00:28:05] Master Liquid Rulz Exactly. And, and then when you say sane, who's definition of sane?

[00:28:10] Wicked Wren Yes, it's all.... Yes!

[00:28:12] Master Liquid Rulz So, like having these broader conversations with people and not just like when you're negotiating. I was having a talk with some people in regards to rope, and I was like, in the way you negotiate, you know, people, the first thing they, they always ask is like, How's your body feeling? And that's great and all, but do you ask people where's their head at? Because sometimes the mind and the headspace that they're in will affect the way the body is in rope. But also, are you asking some of the even simpler type, like do you have any allergies? Then people are like, Allergies? I'm like, What you rope with. So if you're allergic to nuts and I treat it with the wrong oil... You know? So, like, having those conversations. Telling them to advocate for themselves, you know, not to just sit there and have a one sided negotiation. If you need aftercare, speak on it. Explain what that is. Also asking the rope top, do they need aftercare? Because, it's a mutual thing you know? But letting them know "No" is a complete sentence. It is a complete sentence. The scene can be stopped by anyone. It doesn't matter what side of the slash you fall on, because a lot of submissives get into that space where they feel that because they're a submissive or a bottom, that they shouldn't question the top or the dominant. And that's not true at all. Consent can be pulled by either party.

[00:29:33] Wicked Wren Yeah. Just because... That doesn't mean you don't have a say. You have so much of a say. You almost have more of a say.

[00:29:43] Master Liquid Rulz Absolutely. And also telling them like being honest, like if you do have any medical issues, be honest with the person that you're playing with, you're tying with, because that person is not consenting to hurting you and possibly killing you depending on like, you know, what it is you're doing. So be honest. And don't feel like a failure if you're a bottom, your body can't do what you see on Instagram.

[00:30:08] Wicked Wren Yes, yes, yes. The concept of failing is so strange because... You're losing all the context of the picture on Instagram. You don't know how that scene went. You just see a photograph. And it's like, failure can mean a billion different things.

[00:30:26] Master Liquid Rulz Exactly. I'm like, you're getting literally a one second shot. And it probably took like 500 pictures to get that one shot, you know? It's, it's, I've been in some situations where I'm like, Okay, I need to tap out.

[00:30:42] Wicked Wren Yeah. But they're like, psht all right. And then, like, you got the photo. Yeah.

[00:30:46] Master Liquid Rulz You know, and people don't see that. You don't see the the before or the after. Or they also don't understand experience. People's bodies that have been in rope like for years and get to lab and practice regularly. Their body are just different. Like I know I haven't been in rope since... February I think? And it would take me some time to readjust back into it because it's been some time. So it's just like baby steps. Everything doesn't have to be like a dive in. Don't go into sub frenzy. Don't go into top frenzy. Ask questions. Reach out to people that look like you, you know? I get a lot of mentor requests. And I often decline because, you know, mentorship is like having a job. But what I try to explain to people, because it comes from a lot of submissives, is that I can't mentor you to be a better submissive, because what I'm mentoring you and teaching you is being a better submissive to me. So, and your next person, you know, the person you're in a relationship with or dynamic that might not work for them. So reach out to other submissives and slaves that are in dynamics and ask them, you know, questions rather than going to a dominant and vice versa. And people, it's like, Oh, I never thought of it like that.

[00:32:11] Wicked Wren I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. I have been thinking about power dynamics and the ability to say no, and how that influences maybe when we say yes and maybe when we say no. What are your thoughts on tops creating an environment that allows a bottom to truly say yes or no?

[00:32:35] Master Liquid Rulz They all should be doing that. They all should be doing that on a regular basis. A bottom should never feel coerced or feel guilted because they've said no to something, or guilted into saying yes to something. It should be, of course – you know, consent is freely given. So if there is – and communication, that's one of the first things that we talk about is communication. If as a partner, whether top or bottom, dominant, submissive, if you can't go to your your partner first and say, Look, these things are bothering me. Or maybe, Can we renegotiate some things? And they are short or dismissive with you, then they're not the one to be with. Because in leather, the one thing we learn, the first thing we talk, the first, the prime directive, is protect the property. It's protect the property, you know? So if your, your dominant doesn't care about how you're feeling physically, emotionally, mentally. That's not a good person. Yeah.

[00:33:43] Wicked Wren Yeah. That's not the right fit for you. Get out. What do you enjoy in rope?

[00:33:49] Master Liquid Rulz When did I join?

[00:33:50] Wicked Wren No, no, no. What do you enjoy? What do you enjoy? What do you like about rope?

[00:33:54] Master Liquid Rulz Oh, rope, rope, rope. So, as someone who is a dominant in my everyday life to life, rope allows me to be vulnerable. And, it is so hard for me to let go of control. So rope forces stillness.

[00:34:12] Wicked Wren I love that.

[00:34:14] Master Liquid Rulz It lets me sit inside myself. It lets me sit inside my head. It lets me fall into my body. It lets me push my own boundaries. It is such a beautiful feeling to be in rope. And I love suffering in rope, and people are like, But what you described is.... I was like, But there is a point in suffering that, that even in the moments of pain, your body settles into it. That pain doesn't feel the same anymore. Like, each tie teaches me a different lesson. And tying with folks where you have a great relationship with it is very intimate and very personal. And I like that connection. Zoning out everything around, you know? It can be in a packed room. And in my scene, I, it's just me and that person. I don't hear anything that's that's going on because I'm in that moment. It's so amazing.

[00:35:14] Wicked Wren I like it for the same reasons. There's no other (…) item that gives me that. There's nothing else that's that connected to me.

[00:35:24] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah, same, same, same. I love rope so much.

[00:35:29] Wicked Wren Did you find rope in the beginning of your (…) journey, or was it into it a little bit?

[00:35:35] Master Liquid Rulz Later on. Later, later, later. I think it was like 2007. And I was doing it – I was doing floor rope. I wasn't doing suspension much. I was doing it more from modeling. And I had a bad accident and then left rope for eight years. Like... Let it go. And that was because I didn't do my proper due diligence. So it's one of those things, like you learn the lessons when, you know, at the worst times. But, yeah, someone dropped me in rope, like suspended.

[00:36:14] Wicked Wren You do not have to talk about this, but I would love to hear a little bit about it.

[00:36:20] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah, I was at an event. I was (…) at an event. I was one of the house (…), and I was asked because the rope bottom for the performance didn't show up. Didn't show up. So I had a break in between, you know, it was supposed to only be a 15 minute performance. I seen the person tie before at the event. Didn't think anything of it. So I was like, I was like, no one else was there to do it. So I was like, fine, I'll step in. The problem was, he got a little too show off-y.

[00:36:56] Wicked Wren Yep. He did.

[00:36:59] Master Liquid Rulz And decided to use me like Miley Cyrus in Wrecking Ball. And jumped on me and started swinging and started swinging and then jumped off.

[00:37:08] Wicked Wren Insanity.

[00:37:10] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. And then pushed me while still suspended. And when he pushed, the hard point gave. Yeah. So the hard point gave. And if I didn't quickly turn my body in the way that I did, my tailbone would have hit the stage. And... Yeah. His, his attitude was like very nonchalant, like, Oops.

[00:37:38] Wicked Wren And that is shocking to me.

[00:37:40] Master Liquid Rulz No check in, nothing. It was... Yeah.

[00:37:44] Wicked Wren You had never tied with this person?

[00:37:46] Master Liquid Rulz No.

[00:37:46] Wicked Wren And they thought it was appropriate to sit on you?

[00:37:50] Master Liquid Rulz Yep.

[00:37:50] Wicked Wren If I, if I tied with someone for ten years, they would still ask me if they could do that. Like, that's not... That's not like a little thing.

[00:38:01] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah, exactly. And I call it the drop heard 'round the world, because even years later, when we talk about, like, people in the leather community, we talk about, like, events and events we used to go to. It's almost like, Oh, yeah, I remember when I saw this woman fall, like, he dropped her rope, and I was like, Eeeh, and raise my hand. I'm like, Yeah, that's me. And it was like, Oh my God, that was you. I'm like, yep. Like, people still talk about it. Midori had, like, chewed into him about it. Like, everyone knew about this, this thing that happened. It was just...

[00:38:35] Wicked Wren One of the things that is so wild, and why I don't like using the word community, is that that's a huge thing. It was not the other day. This happened a while ago. You're a big figure in this world, and there are people that don't know how this happened. And I'm sure there's people tying with this person that have no idea that he did this. And it's like... How do we have accountability? It's so difficult.

[00:39:07] Master Liquid Rulz He had moved. He moved out of state. Like they all do.

[00:39:09] Wicked Wren Yes, he can continue to do these things in other places. And this is a soapbox that I get on with this podcast a lot, but it's real. It's hard to actually have real accountability and to keep ourselves safe in a world where people do stuff like that.

[00:39:26] Master Liquid Rulz And then when you talk openly about it, people are like, Oh, you're a bully. I'm like, Telling my story makes me a bully because I'm telling the truth? I'm naming them? You know. And it's funny because places like FL, for instance, where FL used to be what it was until they sold they soul for finances, you know, you can post anything, but now certain things you'll get your account deleted for. But God forbid you name who – the person who harmed you, is on FL and they will remove your post and privatize your account. Like...

[00:40:03] Wicked Wren Yeah. Strange. You know...

[00:40:05] Master Liquid Rulz They're like... They're not even holding people accountable.

[00:40:07] Wicked Wren No.

[00:40:09] Master Liquid Rulz But yeah. It's, it's bad.

[00:40:12] Wicked Wren Well, I'm so sorry that happened, but thank you for sharing that. I think it's actually helpful to hear that successful people in the world have had things like this happen to them, because I think a lot of bottoms feel like, Oh, I'm the only one. I'm the only person this has ever happened to. But we all have these experiences. We're just afraid to talk about them and things.

[00:40:31] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. My business partner, last week we did a live. It was a continuation of another live that we had in the previous week of mistakes we've made, you know, and being honest about the mistakes we've made. You know, as (…), as educators, you know, as just humans. We all make mistakes, you know? And the part is owning it. If you (…) up, you know? Because anyone that tells you they've never (…) up in this community is full of it.

[00:40:59] Wicked Wren Yeah, get out.

[00:41:01] Master Liquid Rulz Is full of it. Everyone is going to make a mistake at some point or another. It's how you handle it. You're supposed to grow and move forward.

[00:41:09] Wicked Wren Yeah, it's not really a bad thing to make a mistake. Well, it's, it's not like good or bad, it happens. It's real. Everyone's going to (…) up, but it's all about how you just handle it. Did you learn from it? What have been some of your favorite lessons that you've learned through (…) up?

[00:41:24] Master Liquid Rulz Through (…) up?

[00:41:26] Wicked Wren I could have asked that a more elegant way. I'm so sorry.

[00:41:28] Master Liquid Rulz I'm like, "through (…) up". I'm like, let me pull up the [00:41:29]scroll. [0.0s]

[00:41:31] Wicked Wren Through some minor mishaps. Maybe that's better.

[00:41:36] Master Liquid Rulz So from that situation, from the rope situation, I would say I did not negotiate properly.

[00:41:45] Wicked Wren Okay.

[00:41:46] Master Liquid Rulz Because I didn't ask any questions. I was just like, Okay.

[00:41:51] Wicked Wren That's true. I have learned that one as well.

[00:41:55] Master Liquid Rulz Yeah. Being honest about my limits.

[00:42:00] Wicked Wren Wow. And were you not honest about your limits before this? Were you, what, what impacted that?

[00:42:11] Master Liquid Rulz So I, I sometimes occasionally every now and then am one of my partners bottom for, for heavy impact, and specifically heavy impact in rope. And I am a person that... I'm stubborn. Let's, let's just keep it real. I'm stubborn as hell. So I'm like, I am, I'm like, this is why I can't be a bottom. I'm a (…) bottom. I'm a bratty bottom. I am going to make you work more than you are going to make me work.

[00:42:37] Wicked Wren Oh, my God.

[00:42:39] Master Liquid Rulz And I would not tap out. Until a point where I couldn't sit down for a week.

[00:42:47] Wicked Wren Oh, my God.

[00:42:49] Master Liquid Rulz Like I could not sit down for...

[00:42:52] Wicked Wren Honestly, that's kind of one of the coolest things for the top to feel. It's like, Yeah, sure, you don't have to tap, you don't have to.

[00:42:58] Master Liquid Rulz But I wasn't even giving an emotion.

[00:43:00] Wicked Wren Oh, my God.

[00:43:01] Master Liquid Rulz Like, you're not even going to get a peep or whimper or anything. And I'm like, You don't have to be the big bad, you know? It's okay. So I was like, Yeah, never do that. Respect my own boundaries.

[00:43:15] Wicked Wren Mhm. That's a really good one. It's a really good one.

[00:43:19] Master Liquid Rulz It took me a lot. It took a lot of work, you know, because I want to be the be-all, you know, be there to support everyone. Say yes to everyone. Show up. And that became a difficult thing. I was burning myself out. And that was not only in teaching but in play.

[00:43:36] Wicked Wren Yeah. It allows you to be a better partner for whoever you're there and present for when you respect your boundaries. And that's something I've had to learn really hard too, is that if I can just give my all to less things, those things are going to be way more fruitful.

[00:43:52] Master Liquid Rulz Absolutely. Because I was always the one, you know, when my partners wanted to play, even though I knew I was exhausted. And I'm like, I've just taught all day. But, you know, you're here and I know you want to go play. Instead of saying, Well, give me an hour or two to decompress. I'm like, No, come on, let's go. And then I'm even more exhausted. They had fun. But yeah.

[00:44:18] Wicked Wren But then your meter... That makes sense.

[00:44:22] Master Liquid Rulz Uh, another lesson that I learned being a title holder, being an international title holder and having a large following is a deterrent. It's the bug spray of finding other partners. People are so intimidated by me, they'll go, Oh, I've seen you at this event and I wanted to come over and say hi, but I'm scared. And I was like, I am a person.

[00:44:47] Wicked Wren You're like, I'm a normal person.

[00:44:49] Master Liquid Rulz I'm a person. I'm like, I'm probably more awkward than you are. I'm like, But just come over and say hi. So I got into the habit of when I'm going to do events, posting, like, if you see me out of space and we've talked and you want to just come over and introduce yourself. You know, but yeah, so those are things. Nothing major, but respecting my boundaries is the biggest one. Yeah. That is – it's okay to say no. It's okay.

[00:45:16] Wicked Wren Yes. Do you have any advice for new people coming in in the scene that might be intimidated, might be scared to ask questions like, why is it important for them to ask stuff? How should they go about doing that?

[00:45:30] Master Liquid Rulz So if you're new to the community and you need resources or you want to find information for stuff, reach out to the person, the people that you follow or ask the people that you follow. I tell people all the time, reach out to me. I'm always great with resources, even if I don't personally have the resource for like, the state you live in, I'll be able to connect you to someone in that state, because I don't believe in hoarding information. Hoarding information does a big disservice. What are you doing with it? If you're not teaching, like, give the information. If someone is asking you about a book, give them a book. Like I give lists, book lists all the time. So, you know, I'm just like, What type of book are you looking for? Are you looking for rope? Are you looking for leather or are you looking, you know, what do you need? Do you want black and brown authors? Do you want like, what do you want? And just pass it along.

[00:46:25] Wicked Wren Yeah. I think hoarding info has a lot to do with ego.

[00:46:29] Master Liquid Rulz Big time.

[00:46:31] Wicked Wren You know, it just, it's just a, it's just an ego thing, but... If someone did want to reach out to you and connect with you, how would they find you?

[00:46:40] Master Liquid Rulz On Instagram @liquidandleather.

[00:46:43] Wicked Wren Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

[00:46:46] Master Liquid Rulz Thank you for having me. Sweet way to kick off Friday.